Chimps and ghosts both have a lot to tell us about being human. Poet Nathan Curnow joins us to talk about how he slept in ten of the most haunted sites in Australia, and then carved a language of fear and guts from the experience. And writer Charles Siebert phones in to talk about the hidden meanings of chimpanzees in retirement homes.

Nathan Curnow, The Ghost Poetry Project, Puncher & Wattmann - interviewed by Benedict Taylor

Charles Siebert, Roger's World: toward a new understanding of animals, Scribe Publications - interviewed by Nija Dalal